I do not know if you guys are still talking about whether OBE is the spirit leaving the body or just a dream etc.
I am terribly sorry for being too lazy to read through every post.
According to Thomistic philosophy (based on Aristotelian philosophy) a being consists out of form and matter (or act and potency). This is a metaphysical view called hylomorphism or hylemorphism. Matter cannot exist without form. If you look at a simple red rubber ball: the material it is made out of is the matter (namely rubber) and the redness and roundness and bounciness is the form. You cannot have rubber without it having some kind of form.
Now… a being as a whole has a material body (the matter) and a soul or spirit (the form). eg: a person called peter is the combination of his body and his soul, his body alone is not peter and his soul alone is not peter. When peter dies his soul leaves his body. His body is no longer peter, it is the remains of a being that used to be peter.
If you say that the soul or spirit leaves peter’s body during an OBE, you are also saying that peter dies during the OBE. As soon as the soul leaves the body, the being is no longer alive.
Thus - according to Thomas Aquina’s and Aristotle’s metaphysics and natural theology - OBE cannot be the soul or spirit leaving the body.
Please let me know what you think:)
p.s. I am not ignorant enough to think that people believe what I believe, nor do I believe that my belief is superior to any other belief. Even though Aquinas himself was catholic, and I am not a christian, I still believe in the validity of his philosophy.
As I’ve heard lately here, a theory can be tested by an experiment-- can check itself against what actually happens or is experienced-- but theory is not reliably derived from experimental data.
So, both, “I experienced going out of body so that must be what happened, but my body was always here so it must have been my soul” and “the soul can’t leave the body” are missing something. The previous creates a theory from experience: it doesn’t explain why you would even remember it, if memory is understood as stored in meat, in the brain’s neuron connections, as a physical process. Meanwhile, the latter theory of hylomorphism doesn’t check itself against what, then, is happening during an out of body experience. To involve it in OBE discussions would just be saying, “not that,” without proposing anything else.
I have changed my view a bit,
Your rational soul is immaterial (According to Aquinas), therefore it doesn’t actually take up space in our 3 spatial dimensions. From this I conclude that your soul has the ability to be at more than one place at once (it is a bit difficult to imagine how something would act if it doesn’t consist out of matter). And since dreams are immaterial (you can walk through walls etc.) it isn’t ridiculous to believe that it is actually your soul that is representing a 5 sense reality that is similar to waking life. But at the end of the day it’s going to stay open for debate
Often time when I WILD, I realize I can see my room or some other place through my eyelids. Then I just get up or roll out. I do feel vibrations. Would you say it’s a LD or OBE? How can I tell? Thanks.
Anyone know where I can find a tutorial for OBE? I’d like to get into it, and I’ve looked around the site, but I can’t seem to find one. It could be because of my own inattentiveness, but any help finding a tutorial for OBE would be greatly appreciated.
From what I can tell from my recorded dreams, I’ve had several small OBE’s (with all of them being randoms). They only occured to me when I didn’t use a technique and only went to bed to sleep.
I had a pretty intense experience earlier this year. I went to bed just like normal and fell asleep without any problems. All of sudden, I became aware that I’m seeing the wall infront of me. I knew that my eyes were closed, but I was still able to see through my eyelids. Everything I saw was silvery grey and some things were almost white. My vision “flashed” for a short moment and my arm kind of felt weird. I raised it and was amazed to see two arms, not one. It felt weird to move my astral arms out of my real arms (not sure what to call them) . It was as if something was between them, like some kind of “glue” that was holding my astral body together with my actual body.
I then lost some of my awareness and fell into the same semi-lucid dream twice and stayed there for a minute or two before I was back in my bed with the silvery vision. It flashed again and this time it was my head that had that feeling. I moved it slightly and knew that I would be able to get out of my body if I wanted to. But…I was scared of what I might see once I was outside and chickened out. I soon lost my control and fell asleep, but not before hearing a bell-like noise in my ears.
Later that day, my hands still had that feeling in them. It didn’t feel as if they were actually “there”. It felt as if some part of them were still outside my body. They also had a faint tingling sensation.
I agree with you entirely when you talk about the matter and the form of who we are as humans. Like our brains are existent in our material bodies, yet our minds exist within our soul.
I like to think of our soul, or our spirit, as the Universe for our body. Not our body as a whole, but for the billions and trillions of separate living organisms that create our body. I believe our body is the vehicle we have chosen for this life, and although we are bound to this body until we die, that doesn’t restrict us from our spirit traveling outside of that within this lifetime.
Here’s another interesting thought though… Dreaming seems to happen entirely within our minds. We go to sleep, and wake up in an entirely new world. Where as astral projection (OBE’s), instead of going within and creating an alternate reality… We go OUTSIDE our bodies and experience reality from a different perspective, or a different state of consciousness.
Hold that thought for a second… Dreams occur because of a compound in our brain called Dimethyltryptamine (DMT), when we go into REM sleep, DMT is released, and therefore we dream. DMT is also known to be released upon death, and birth, in much higher doses than when we dream, which is believed to be the process of binding our soul/spirit to our material body at birth, and returning to the spiritual world when our time here is done.
I believe if we leave our body within our lifetime while we are still bound to it, there is a silver cord attached from our body to our soul/spirit. Until we die, this silver cord cannot be severed, which allows us to leave our bodies. We can ALWAYS come back to our body, it’s just a simple thought away. This silver cord cannot be severed in the astral world, and can only be severed upon material death. Death is non existent in the astral world.
If your at all interested in learning more about DMT (it is extremely interesting), I can recommend Rick Strassman’s book ‘DMT: The Spirit Molecule’. It is an amazing book, and there is a documentary based on the book also, both absolutely amazing!
DMT has nothing to do with dreams…the pineal gland has nothing to do with dreams. DMT is not quote unquote “known to be released upon death, and birth”.
Not to mention the human body produces NO WHERE NEAR the amount of DMT it takes to produce it’s ‘hallucinatory’ effects. Were talking less than picograms.
The human body does not have ‘special DMT reserves’…it’s physiologically impossible for the human body to produce the amount of DMT it would take produce the effects described.
That being said… That book is quite literally, chalked full of disinformation.
Edit: Also, dreams are OBES. Dreams are unconscious OBEs… A Lucid dream is a ‘semi-conscious’ OBE. In a ‘Lucid Dream’ or as I like to call it a ‘semi-conscious OBE’ the person is only about 60-70% aware…'Semi-conscious obes… are so unstable because the subconscious Linear mind is still projecting thought forms onto the environment.
A mind who perfects consciousness does not run into thought forms…or artificial projections from the linear mind… he or she perceives the environment just how it is in ‘waking physical reality’. He or she will retain 100% awareness.
Another thing… all matter is just energy condensed to a slow vibration. According to quantum physics a single subatomic particle exists in multiple places at once…this also applies to consciousness.
Once you realize this… that’s where the fun begins.
Hi Seer0511, welcome to the forum. While there isn’t really a perfect method to OBE/AP from LD’s, if you read through here you’ll find a few different ways in which people have achieved them. I think a fan favourite is using DEILD and then, once lucid rolling out of the body. You can read all about DEILD right here. I hope it helps you!
I’ve had only one experience that I would describe as real OBE.
Long story short, I dreamt that I was drowning. Right when I drowned, I woke up. I was so happy and relieved that I didn’t really die, that I wanted to get up from my bed. Instead, my legs fell through the bed and I was standing above my own body.
I couldn’t believe what I was seeing and wanted to get some help. I couldn’t open the door, but I managed to go right through, and into the living room. My mother was there, changing channels. I couldn’t turn on the light. I felt being pulled back to my room, and onto the bed. As I entered my body, I woke up.
Instantly, I rushed to the living room, only to find my mother sitting there, changing channels, exactly how I saw her before.
Hi, I was wondering if it was possible to enter an OBE or AP while doing a WILD?
I heard about Lucidology 101, which seems to make a connection between the 2 subjects, but I still didn’t understand it.
How do you turn a LD into an OBE ?
One last question : how can you make the difference between LDs and OBEs? Is it a matter of feeling?
I’ve been trying to learn to AP/OBE from an LD for a little while now.
A strange thing happened yesterday… I tried to make the switch-over by closing my eyes in the LD and thinking “I wish to astral project.” To tell a short version of the story: I experienced what looked and felt exactly like my last (and so far only) successful OBE, but on waking I noticed that some details were very off, ex. in the “OBE” I was in bed alone, but my fiancé had been sleeping next to me the entire time.
I’m not sure if it’s even appropriate to post here now…since I’m newly back here and since I’m really not that experienced a LD-er in terms of ability to frequently enter into LD-ing, though I have had quite a few over the last 10 years or so.
OBE-style WILD’s are, now, pretty much the primary way that I experience LD’s, though I will, on occasion, sprout a DILD every now and then. It’s almost always WBTB style occurrence…usually around 3-4 a.m. I usually go back to bed and then lie on my side on the bed facing toward the edge of the bed…and then slowly but progressively relax toward falling asleep with my eyes closed while remaining aware…just gazing into the darkness behind closed eyes and sinking into emptiness, without thoughts…without speculation…just peacefully sink into emptiness and let go, but stay aware. Soon, I’ll begin to see HI emerge, but I don’t try to “go into it”…don’t try to step into those dream images. I just watch them come and go with interest, of course, but without trying to specifically do anything with them or to them…just keep relaxing/sinking into that state of impassive observing. Then, once the HI gathers intensity and a degree of immersion, I’ll typically begin to hear auditory hypnogogic phenomena, like surging roaring sounds…or strange motor-like vibratory sounds…or the voice of a man or woman making some kind of strange announcement, as if on the radio, but impossible to understand…or the sounds of people or children talking/playing right beside my ear or beside the bed. These sounds will often create a kind of vibratory, high frequency ticking sensation throughout my body that’s pretty strange and hard to “sit still” through. The key, for me, is to simply stay loose…stay relaxed and detached…don’t push…don’t pull…and just let it do it’s thing. If the energy is there and if I can stay relaxed and impassive through this transition (and sometimes its tough because sometimes the ticking/surging sensation comes through in very strong waves and are almost unbearable…not painful…but unbearably “ticklish” on some ethereal level) then often I will start to experience a subtle, slow rolling sensation as I slowly roll out of my body toward space beyond the edge of the bed. The key here, for me, is to not push it…and to not resist it…as mentioned before. For me, it’s absolutely nothing that “I” am doing to make it happen, other than staying relaxed and detached…it happens all by itself. Again, if the energy is there and if I don’t get too excited or resist too much, the slow rolling will spill me onto the floor beside the bed in my “dreaming body”…or whatever you want to call it (I’ve ceased the compulsion to label things definitively anymore). From that point forward, it’s about first trying to stand up and then get moving to explore while holding onto dreaming cohesion.
That’s my typical technique for rolling out into an OBE-style WILD. I don’t feel comfortable calling it a technique, though…because it’s nothing really that I devised or endeavored to put into practice…it’s just something that kind of emerged on its own. I had definitely read some info, also, in the past about other’s experiences which corroborated this method…but, after watching this happen many times in my direct experience…I think it simply has more to do with the state/quality of progressive relaxation before going back to sleep while simultaneously holding onto inner wakefulness.
So, after more or less one month, I had my first OBE ! Link to DJ
It was an awesome experience, and I am really proud of this accomplishment
I wish it was just the first of many such experiences
I have to say that I have read / researched a lot during this month, and I keep reading. In the end what helped me most was the advise given by Glitch on Astral Society forum (topic: best AP method), which resonated with me as the right thing to do; it is basically a distillation of Castaneda books, and I started practicing as soon as I could.
I’ve had an account on here for a while but never been that interested in OBEs, mostly as I had the impression that they were dangerous.
But I came across this free book yesterday, The Escapist’s Guide to Out-of-Body Experiences, and it’s got me interested, as it presents a viewpoint on the topic that I’ve not seen before, and gives a basic guide (similar to some lucid dreaming techniques) to having OBEs, with some meditation added in.
Admittedly, I’m not sure how much of it I believe, aside from the fact that the author experienced what she experienced, but that’s more personal because I’m never sure how spiritual I feel X). I think everyone has different opinions and experiences about the topic, and we’ll probably never have a conclusive answer, especially with the addition of spirituality.
I’m not sure what the point I was going to make in this post was, but I thought that this book would be interesting to people in this topic. And it’s free, so no money has to be spent! I’m definitely going to try out the method that she recommends, plus the meditation, because I do want to try this out now.