Do you think OBE are LDs ?

Beyond Dreaming
61

Basilicus West, originally I tried to approach the vacuum/emptiness thing from the quantumphysical side of view, or more exactly from the point of view of a hypothetical waking observer, rather than from those of the dream body and the emptiness.

But apparently your intuition works quite good. I belive that having a totally decondensed energy body assumes the experience of the interdream emptiness that seems to bind “astral places” and “dream bubbles” together. Who is this Flo anyway?

By the way, I found his/her explanation quite correct yet simple. Sometimes a good metaphor makes more sense than a many paged explanation.

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First of all thanks for putting in the time to answer my curiosity :smile:. I just read your post, it’s all pretty interesting to me (I hope to some others perhaps aswell :razz:). I have to think on it (and re-read it a few times) before I will reply in more detail. Meantime if you want to continue ot elaborate on your ideas, theories and experiences, please don’t hesitate!

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The Dalai Lama said it tried too, by he wasn’t good enough in quantum physics :content: to mix these two points of view…

She is (or was) probably the best french LD’er, or at least the first who published in France about LD’ing on the Internet. She began LD’ing in the 90’s, published her dream journal up to 2001, and she has now a blog. But it’s in french. She wrote some posts here around July 2004. Nowadays, she’s practising dzogchen (a way of the tibetan buddhism) but she goes on having about 20 LD’s or OBE’s per month.

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most of mine are, but i don’t discount the possibility for real OBEs, and if you can do them, i think you need high levels of energy and need to project out of a chakra or something to that extent.

(possibly the root?)

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Just curious, do you have the URL to her blog or maybe her dream journal?

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Her DJ (two rtf files):
https://florence.ghibellini.free.fr/revelucidej/floindex.html
Her blog:
https://iznogoud75.skynetblogs.be/
They’re in french.

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Thanks a bunch, maybe I can pick up some cool tips from her.
My french isn’t that bad :content:

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Sorry for not replying for so long. I assume only few will read it, but I promised to continue, so here it is.

Every resonant brain frequency (i.e. 1.5Hz, 4Hz, 10Hz, 40Hz) has a corresponding set of structure from brainstem to cortex. Upper levels contain structures from the previous organisation level. Also, each of these levels has an associated electromagnetic field, that is, at first sight seems to be identical with the electromagnetic noise they generate at work. However, within these fields a great amount of coherence taking place. Basically, going from the level of individual cells and below, through tissues, organs and organ systems all the way up to the bioplasm field as the uppermost coordinator of physiology various sets of electromagnetic fields represent adjacent segments on the consciousness continuum. However, these are just the human part of the continuum as it proceed further unting humans and other animals into super consciousnesses.

Basically, as you lower arousal level you change the basis on which the specific pattern of information you identify yourself with is sustained. Like the consciousness (energy) were a chain of lakes connected by canals and personality that you want to keep intact were waves on the surface. If you are unable to migrate your personality pack onto the adjacent grade of the field continuum you would lose consciousness (waking personality). It means that the system had been unable to build up the required coherence to form a “super structure” able to hold the personality. The personality decomposes with failure of cooperation of supporting subsystems and remain in a latent state until you wake up.

Otherwise, you would suddenly became fully conscious again but now on another level. At this point the information pattern of the personality modulates an energy field only losely associated with the brain. Some even hear a strong metallic noise, or a “click” when detach from one field and connect to the other. The new level, as a straight consequence of reduced brain arousal, should be based on electromagnetic fields that show greater delocalisedness. Greater integration between supporting brain structures would manifest in increased interhemispheric coherence. There should be, as well, a greater coherence between various organs and organ systems.

Our body is composed of at least three fundamentally different sets of fields that correspond with the three dantien. The first dantien is more or less associated with the level of ordinary biological matter. The bioplasm, however, as the first segment of the continuum that could be, at least temporarily displaced, is associated with the middle dantien regio (solar plexus), the control center of the bioplasm body. It is bodily projection of the hypothalamus that integrates various organ systems into the animal consciousness of our body. The third grade, the hypothetical energy field of the vacuum does not seem to belong to the physical body at all. However it is just our faulty concept of space that sustains this illusion. Apparently our senses haven’t been designed to deal with this problem, making it quite difficult to reconcile this knowledge with the picture we have about ourselves. For want of better, we even see this field as part of the human body as light in the third ventricle (I’ll explain this later).

The three grade of the consciousness continuum represent various energy states subsequently more closer to the level of physical vacuum. From the persepctive of our waking senses they become progressively more delocalised by taking the appearance of expanded layers within the human aura. But this is mutual, since by becoming attenued with these parts of the consciousness, the waking world starts too, have the appearance of a blur. For instance, when I’m at the intermediate stage between OBEs and dreams my sleeping body often looks like a pulsating grey mass, and areas of the room I sleep in often heavily distorted or couldn’t be looked at.

Beautifully enough, the two field in question, the bioplasm and the vacuum condensatum, seem to be associated with the middle of the body (solar plexus) and the middle of the head respectively. I’ll continue with the description of the bioplasm field and the vacuum condensatum.

https://www.biofieldsciences.com/The%20Human%20Energy%20Field%20in%20Relation%20to%20Science.pdf
https://www.vxm.com/21R.36.html
https://www.gcpd.de/publication/gcpd99/guqiao.pdf
https://light.simanonok.com/
https://salve.slam.katowice.pl/theory-Pitkanen.htm

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It seems to me you could possibly have an OBE without knowing your dreaming, so I’d say either answer can be true.

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yep

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Popov sorry for my late reply but I wanted to ask you, how do you know the bioplasmic and the vacuum fields aren’t the same thing manifesting itself in different forms, depending on different brain conditions, psychology, physiology etc? In other words, why do you even need to invoke such things as a hypothetical vacuum field when there could be a more logical explanation for these experiences, which is to me, spirit seperating from the physical body during a “real” (lets define that as the "real one) "OBE.

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Hello Xetrov!

Now I should apologize. If the bioplasmic and vacuum fields act differently (as apparently do), and are linked with different measurable conditions (as we both suspect), then, they should be different entities. Even if they different only phenomenologically (whatever it means … lol), we should treat them accordingly. After all, we are practicioner of an art we dare to try explain scientifically.

But yes, I think the bioplasm pool and the vacuum realized field are substantially different entities. They represent subsequent grades on the consciosuness continuum that are somwhere between the states we call pure energy and matter. Separated by the interplay of various physical constants set off by Nature they are as real as the physical body. I could be wrong though.

But I have experimental evidences:

  1. The very mood of these states are totally different, and mood or instinct are things that we should not disregard when we deal with dreams. In my early experiences, I even made a very strick distinction between the “postseparational stage,” where the odd bioplasmic things, pull, cables, etc. used to happen and the “traveling stage” where I’m free from those limitations. At first I called them as “body bounded” and “body unbounded” “carriers of consciousness.”

  2. There is a distinct feeling at end of a stage i called “postseparational” when I drop out from this heavy, honey like substance I believe to be bioplasm. It literally feels like toppling foward, and being dropped out from someting. The sight appear and the pull is gone. Also, the way how the cable migrates and terminates by its own, against any expectations, as well its internal movements and the pull that decreases exponentially by distance all support the view that someting is on way back to the body, thus bounded to it.

  3. The weird dynamics of the “traveling stage” like zooming, jump like sliding, surface following, expansion and contraction, teleportation, layered visions, seeing buildings from inside and outside at the same time, and most importantly, the absence of any cable (!), indicates this out-of-body body as being independent from the organism, at least in the conventional sense, I mean regarding space. The evidences of objective remote perception as well the weird way by which this “body” acts in the closure of high tension power lines presupposes physical interaction that should taking place close to the realm of electromagnetic fields.

Actually I have an explanation for the weird behavior. It’s based on Bearden’s expalantion of dynamics of power transmission. According to him, the Hevyside component of the electrical flow that miss the conductors causes a vacuum curvature. Basically, this flow, much greater in order of magnitude than conventional physics could recon with, makes space inclined toward the cundoctors (along perpendicular vectors). This explain the weird behavior that the energy body shows in the closure of power lines. Also, I have this much older “fluctocondensation” theory to describe the weird maneuvers of the energy body when a dream turns into OBE or vice versa.

Now I should really continue.

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So you mean that when you go all the way from LD to full seperation (vacuum field), you always go through the bioplasmic stage, and the bioplasm retracts at a certain moment (when you are far enough from your body?) back into or around the physical body? Kind of like a “shell” that you leave behind?

Perhaps this is an odd question but I want to ask this anyway, how do you know that what you experience is not at all the result of mental images (dreams or dreamlike sequences, whatever), perhaps in some cases accompagnied by ESP? I assume you know how increadibly accurate and lifelike our minds (whatever that is exactly) can create visions, touch, and even all other senses during (lucid) dreams.

But then again I’m open to your ideas. Are there many others that share your experiences? Could you describe the exact technique you use to go all the way from LD to vacuum seperation? Im very curious to try and see what happens when I experience this. Thanks a lot so far! :smile:

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If the Dream is only a mental image, what are the vibrations? why can I trigger them while dreaming?

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Yes, but sleep should be deep enough for that. I could have a separation with none or very little bioplasmic effects at level three and two.

Haha, that’s a good question. Quite unfair, too. How can I know it for sure? All my instrument are, as well as you, Xetrov, inside my mind. Are you real? As long as you couldn’t prove it for me, we couldn’t have more thant the hope: our senses are working well and we are as critic and objective as we are able to.

I also hope I’m right, and that’s quite a promise itself.

Ok, it’s very easy to do. It could happen every time I lay down into the exact position of my sleeping body and induce a mental falling sensation in my mind. You should wait with separation until buzzes become pronounced enough but you shouldn’t go to as deep where you’ll been ejected.

Then, as you crawl away from the bed try to feel the pull, if any, with your dream hand. By this trick you should got the dream interpretation of the cable. There are a couple of things I did not mentioned about it so we can compaire our notes.

I’ve read two or three articles about the “silver cord” which partly confirmed my experiences. Also, they made me realize that’s there is much more to experience in this field than I did.

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Tombo, you haven’t been lazy in the previous days, I mean you projected into all those small and great darknesses and even tried to phase into Frank’s F3. So what do you want here? :wink:

By the way, I think we already explained this with Xetrov. When you shut down your brain within a dream and exit REM sleep, the brain starts to generate more theta and delta waves. These high amplitude, synchronous pulses cause the general feeling of rapid vibrations and strong buzzes.

Upon all this, there is a more slow, sea like undulation of noises and vibrations. They better imagined as a bunch like accumulation of these synchronous theta and delta pulses sweeping across parts of the cortex where we feel our body.

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Ok, so what is bioplasm?

Mainstream science regards bioplasm as a byproduct of molecular processes, a bunches of free ions that arise when molecules do their usual things like decaying, changing their conformations, etc. Acording to the conventional science they do it for no other means, as it id said, than to provide a random background of activation energy for similar reactions. This view has changed a lot over the years yet still taught on universities. Popp and others have proved that the ultraweek photon field that permeates every living cell is coherent and organizing enzymatic reactions in time and space.

Nor the bioplasm pool of the organism nor the biophoton fields are unified. Every organ has a slightly different ionic pool in respect to the pattern of locally expressed genes. This tissue specific gene expression not only set off quantity and quality of various enzymes, other proteins and cell compounds within the organ (thus generating a tissue specific composition of ions), but it also defines a specific DNA configuration, too. This is very important because according to Popp and others, the DNA is the main source of biophotons. To avoid vis vitalis hypothesises you’d better to imagine the relationship between conformation changes of various biomolecules and the coherent biophoton field as mutual.

Ion densitiy of the brain, heart, liver, and muscles should be greater than those of other organs because they rich in mitochondrias. And I found exactly these body parts are the most hard to separate with. I think pull that many OBEer feel after separation could be explained by the hypothesis that different ion pools have the tendency of being absorbed around places where they have born. Thus, dislocating a local pool may result in some form of resistance.

I know this concept seems far fetched, but it’s very simple. So far I couldn’t come up with better idea except the “lacing point hypothesis” and the “state changing resistance.” These things however, I beleive, are strongly related. Deeper understanding of this connection has also freed me from thinking in mind-body and inner-outer dualism. Now ithink that conventional theories of sensory functioning are fundamentally wrong, and “feeling ions” is not only possible but actually the only way for perceiving.

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But I ask this because to me it’s a very valid question. It has come to my attention that there is another sequence to OBE/NDE, and it goes rather different from your’s. So perhaps both are “real”, perhaps only 1, or perhaps none. I guess you already know what I talk about, but I’ll type it out anyway.

My sequence:

LD → lucid sleep → NDE

Compared to your sequence:

LD → Bioplasm OBE-> Vacuum OBE.

Also, the experiences of both sequences are different. In mine, there is no bioplasm for example, also no need to align with sleeping physical body. A friend of mine is rather very experienced in inducing NDE’s in this way, and has done so multiple times even with EEG machines attached, so that he could be sure that there was no brainwaves going on. So Popov, could you explain the differences between these two sequences?

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I put that LDs aren’t OBE’s.

Lucid dreams are when a person has full control of their dream. If your dream is not even close in anyway to reality then it is not a OBE. Though there are those who dream of themselves leaving their bodies and visiting their friends, family, lovers, etc. I still think thats simply you exisiting in a lucid state without creating or altering your surroundings.

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yea I think that oobe are lds what ppl have explained oobe to be are the same thing that happens b4 u ld