Well it’s not like our spirit is just this fuzzy cloud that floats up to heaven once we die. I don’t know what takes place when we pass from Earth to Heaven, but I do know that our spirit is just like our physical body and is indeed composed of matter; it’s just a purer form that our eyes are not able to see. But if we could see it, we would know that everything (yes, spirits too) are made of matter. That said, I’m sure our spirit will function just like our bodies in that we have our senses. But I still don’t know if we’re given the power (even if hidden) to project our spirit from our physical body.
Curious…how do you know that? 
Maybe we should apply the techniques to have a obe to having a lucid dream. The one’s for Obe’s involve feeling and visualising yourself floating out of your body and walking around an area you’ve memorized.
There are actually several techniques which to just that, they are all a type of WILD. LaBerge writes of them in EWLD, calling them the Twin Bodies Technique, One Body Technique, and the No Body technique. There worth looking at I think 
Probobo: Check out my experience just this morning @ 3 FA’s, 3 SP, 1 “OBE” : My opinion on OBE. Xetrov responds that he uses “OBE” techniques to get into LD’s.
I think the arousal/consciousness continuum on which both lucid dreams and astral projections are situated looks like this:
level four - lucid dreams taking place mostly in phasic REM sleep charcterised by high arousal even with gamma and beta activity
level three - hypnagogics and awareness of sleep paralysis mostly with alpha/theta activity
level two - typical “pseudo” OBEs in clinical light sleep, similar to sleep stage #2 NREM with EEG peaks in alpha/theta/delta bands
level one - etheric or bioplasmic OBEs in deep sleep which is similar to sleep stage #3 NREM accompained by theta/delta activity
level zero - "astral projections in 4th and more deeper, “anomalous” NREM sleep / very low arousal with coherent interhemispheric delta patterns
These are narrow focuses compared to the waking state and hence their instability. The waking state cannot be placed on this continuum. At waking we hold these focuses together, but they are usually processed unconsciously.
I have experienced all level of this continuum and travelled it up and down. For me, a typical projection starts at level two and seems to be layered with level one and three. It quickly shifts up and turn into lucid dreaming by default which I then can transform into a real OBE (for me transition is hard and never perfect) or astral projection.
A real OBE, in which you have the ability to observe the consensus reality from a point outside of your body usually takes place at level two or three. Having one is not a matter of arousal, but the direction of attention. The objectivity of the experience, according to my model, depends on the condensation degree of a hypothetical energy field, emerging directly from the physical vacuum outside of the body.
As opposed to the bioplasm or etheric matter which blind like hell, it doesn’t need to come out of the body. It appears magically where you think you are. If you manage to keep it dense enough your observations will be accurate. Otherwise the state stabilizing sensory feedback will decrease exponentially and the field will collapse back into the vacuum.
I voted no.
Alright I give a more detailed response…
Lets assume it is possible to perceive realy physical things during a OBE. An assumptions which I personally have verified.
ok, now we have the following situation.
a) waking life: your consciousness generates a modell of the world mainly based up on external data.
b)OBE: your consciousness generates a modell partially based on external data.
c) LD: your consciouness generates a modell “solely” (really?) based up on internal data.
Or pure definition:
OBE: Starts from waking consciousness, with no break of consciousness in between, in your bedroom.
The OBE-world is generated by you ( as all mental modells are) and may have significant abnormalities compared to your real Bedroom. It is however possible to perceive data from the real world while out of Body.
OBE = special kind of WILD
lol as far as I can remember i wasn’t trashing you with “dont judge if you dont have first hand experience” though! That was mainly Frank… I tried to have a faire, argument based discussion. Now, I see a big difference if somebody (you)shows up at a OBE-Forum providing a multipage essay and asking for comments; To somebody (me) that simply states his opinion on a poll and gives his personal reason for that 
Cheers Tom
No. OBE´s can happen while awake, as someone mentioned, naturally under extreme press/stress for example.
ah I see! 
great example! hmmm that calls for more thinking.
That’s right. I personnaly know 3 people who have had this (it was a frightening experience, as you can imagine ).
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Popov, you gave a good description of how you see what you describe as the “arousal/consciousness continuum”, where OBE’s and AP’s take place. I want to give a few comments on this from my own as well as some other people’s experience.
To me, it gets interesting here:
You comment about these levels:
So you mean that you mostly start your real OBE’s from a pseudo OBE (the latter being a phenomenon that resembles basically a LD in nREM). This kind of pseudo - OBE as you call it, is exactly the type of OBE that the people here are discussing about. Proponents of the “an OBE is real” - idea (no pun) think that at this stage, you are actually seperated from your body (spirit or spiritual essense/energy being away from the body) and thus call this a “real” OBE. Research into people who claim to have OBE’s (I believe Monroe was part of the ones they researched) has indeed pointed out that the majority (perhaps even all) of their OBE’s happen in this phase. Yet as you wrote, these aren’t OBE’s in the literal sense of the definition (thus “pseudo”).
Why do you call it a real OBE here, while in your description you call it “pseudo OBE”. Or are you talking here of 2 different phenomena?
You continue…
This is new and a rather confusing theory to me. If having a real OBE is a matter of directing attention (and not of arousal), what happens at a level 1 “etheric or bioplasmic OBE”? Do you mean level 1 is a kind of OBE where an energy essense (spirit or energy body whatever you call it) actually leaves the body (which you describe as being a matter of arousal, isnt it?), contrary to a level 2 or 3 OBE where it is all a matter of attention? Are these 2 different kinds of real OBE’s to you? Perhaps I dont understand exactly what you mean with “etheric or bioplasmic OBE”. If so, could you please explain?
Also, what exactly is this “condensation degree of a hypothetical energy field, emerging directly from the physical vacuum outside of the body.”… This is a rather puzzling concept to me. If it appears magically, and if it is a matter of focussing of consciousness (directing attention), to me it sounds like something mental, and not like something (spirit/energy body) which leaves the physical body (as you indeed seem to describe). If a mental OBE leads to observing the consensus reality from a point outside of your body, I would call this the use of extra sensory perception (ESP), and not being really outside of the body (which to me is, seperation of spirit and physical body). However this might be merely a matter of using different definitions of what an OBE really is.
I would like to know more about the nature of this hypothetical energy field phenomenon, what is the connection of it to our consciousness and to our physical bodies? Perhaps you mean that only consciousness leaves the body in this phase, and that by leaving it somehow it conjures from the physical vacuum a kind of energy to sustain it? How is that possible? First of all, don’t the laws of physics forbid a stable creation of energy out of vacuum? Second, if it were possible, how does such a process go exactly?
Anyway, it is interesting that from your personal experience, inducing an OBE is a matter of a sliding scale so to speak. You also speak of OBE’s during deep sleep (I already touched upon your level 1 OBE’s). I wonder, how do you know you are in deep sleep? Can you “slide” into a level 1 or 0 OBE too from any position? And what ecactly happens at your level 0 OBE? You write about astral projections here (what is your definition of this term?), so clearly these can be no mental OBE’s like you seem to have desribed as being the OBE’s in level 2 and 3. First of all the visual cortex is offline here so there is no way for the brain to form any picture (which is what happens at a mental or level 2/3 OBE). Second these happen during deep sleep, and I happen to know (or to say more specific, I am in the fortunate position to know) someone who has induced OBE’s from this level, which he described as having an NDE where his spiritual essence left his body temporally. The funny thing is that he recorded this with an EEG and showed no brain activity, which I think is pretty interesting.
Well anyway that’s my ideas on the topic in relation to your post, if you would have some time to answer a few of my questions i’d be grateful, thanks a lot 
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I was just kidding ya …
Flo distinguished between LD’s and another state which she called the “intermediary state”. According to her, in a LD, 95% of “energy” is within the dream, that’s why it is “solid”. But in the “intermediary state” (generally a dark space with OBE sensations), energy is mostly within the dreamer, and it leads to energetic sensations. Moreover, it seems that some energy of the “space around the dreamer” is not invested into representations, and it could be perceived more easily.
Popov: I suppose that this space is what you call the “physical vacuum outside of the body”… ummm… which is a little bit bombastic and confusing…
Thank you Basilus, but that doesn’t clarify a lot to me. First of all Flo seems to describe a lot of these experiences in her own subjective language. This is normal ofcourse but it leaves me to wonder about a lot of the terms she is using. For starters, what does she mean with that “energy” (there’s lots of stuff that can be called energy), and where does it come from? Why would that make a dream solid? There’s lots of explanations as to why a LD is solid or not, but this one is new to me. Also, you describe a dark space with OBE sensations, which can be many things at many times. OBE sensations are pretty common during WILDS and LD’s generally, and so are dark spaces (at least to me). And what do you mean with that last sentence about the energy from the space around the dreamer not being invested into representations??? lol… I can’t make heads or tails of that 
…
Xetrov, I think you missed my point above. It does not matter if we really leave our body or not, cause it is indistinguishable.
Same as it is indistinguishable if we are really on this planet or in a giant matrix, inside a computer, doesn’t matter at all!
Well, I respectfully disagree with that! I could have agreed, yet someone whome I respect a lot has given me accounts of his NDE’s which I really think do not compare at all with what the majority claims is an OBE.
LOL! Neither it does to me !
That’s the main problem. When in chi-kong they speak about chi, or prana in yoga practices, what do they speak about? I know that Flo’s notion of energy has the same meaning, cause she practised chi-kong and yoga. I’ve practised yoga and I can put a sensation on the notion of energy. But I don’t know how (and even if) it could be explained in terms of neurobiology… 
OK. I comprehend it’s incomprehensible. I was supposing Flo’s explanation could bring some clarity to the subject, but it’s not the case. Moreover, I’m not sure I’m understanding well what she says, cause I’ve not a lot of experience about the “intermediary state” she describes… 
Here’s how I imagine Flo’s representation. 
Suppose you are inside a sphere, like you’re the center of it. This sphere is full of “energy”.
Case 1 : there could be a sort of centrifugal force, and the main part of the energy goes against the inner surface of the sphere, and create images. You’re in a LD. The more energy in the surface, the less you have to modify images: the dream is solid.
Case 2: the force is centripetal. You’re full of energy, what can be experienced through energetic feelings, like electrical fields, vibes, etc. But images are poor or inexistent (it’s dark). As you’re full of energy you can easily create or modify the context: you can imagine something, then enter the LD, and you’re in the case 1. Most of the time, this projection is made unconsciously. You just have to think quickly: “he! I feel something wrong here” and a monster appears. Most often in this state, your thoughts are rather clear, you experience physical sensations (they most often are wrong, like floating), like you are awake, but you’re asleep. So that’s why she calls it the “intermediary state”.
Generally speaking, the whole energy is not in the dreamer, or in the images. There is always some energy between the dreamer and the images. I know it’s a very abstract representation, and it’s perhaps not interesting. Let’s suppose I have said nothing…
Well this actually does clarify it a bit to me . I think it is an interesting metaphor to describe these 2 stages that can happen (from my experience, there’s even more stages).
Phew! It relieves me you say that!
Hello Xetrov, thanks for your feedback. You raised too many questions to answer them at once.
Not exactly, although this was a tendency before. Nowadays I let my fake OBEs to turn into lucid dreams as they inclined to progress naturally before I attempt to converse them to real OBEs then “astral projections.” It’s more easy to do these transformations from a fluid dreamstate. To have an OB-like experience, fake or not, we don’t need to go deeper than level 2. To being able to go more deeper directly from the waking state is difficult and requires sleep dept or strong trance abilities that I apparently haven’t got.
As a brief report of my status, I have to say, except a couple of quality OBEs and APs that I can count on my two hands, in the last couple of years I’ve basically been stuck in the intermediate states, howering around somewhere between LDs and OBEs. It shouldn’t necessary been that way but I have tried to understand what was going on. I think I was suceessfull though.
I’m sure it is, dreaming in the 2nd stage of sleep somwhere around where the sensory gate closes. The closure is iniciated by thalamic impulses that appear on EEG recordings as sleep spindles. You may remember that I identified the pulsing noises and pressures one may feel in the intermediate trance states as likely being the subjective concomitant of this process. After the sensory gate ot the thalamus closes, you’ll not only blind and deaf for the external world, but also the internal representation of the body will have been cut off from the periheral sensory inputs that synchronizes them. Since the inner body loses its feedback with the physical body it starts to get out of alignment with the sleeping posture, eventually coming out as dream body. However, I think REM will start only with the first pictures. Detaching the sometosensory phantom will only potentiate REM sleep as S2 sleep does anyway. Appearance of the first pictures, hazy and grey at the beginning, may be the real sign of the S2 > REM transition.
A pure level 2 OBE, which, by the way, should be quite an exception in its purity, is totally fake. Nothing separates from the body in the space as we know it. Only the neuromatrix will have detached from the periphery and come out of alignment with it as a somatosensory phantom. Then, as REM starts our expectations create a dream representation of the bedroom. I’m inclined to note here, too, that I think we are always in this “dream body” just as we are always in the “dream world.” However, at waking, our highly specialized senses synchronize our personal “dream bubbles” intogether to sustain the illusion of a consensus waking world.
As I wrote above, a pure level 2 OBE is rare. A typical one is almost always layered with bioplasm separation and I believe, hence the initial pull after separation. It could be also simply the “protuberance point” where the lacing of the somatosensory phantom causes some disfunction in the neuromatrix. But it is even more likely, that both at the same time! It will be very demanding to explain at this point of our conversation.
I wanted to say that although most OBE that takes place around level 2 is fake, the few real one should be start at that level too. Having a real OBE, in my view, is not a matter of arousal at the first place, but depend upon the condensation degree of that vacuum realized field I was talking about. Seemingly it coincides with level 2 but only because otherwise they will not be remembered. But I’m not sure about this. It should be depend on the energy source. If the source is outside of the body, the magnetospheric self for instance, then the hypothesis above is more likely correct. If the condensatum is excited out from the vacuum by the brain, then it may have a strick state dependence, but again, not necessarily.
In my head (or somwhere else… loll) there are two experiences labelled as “real OBE.” By “real OBE” I mean either a “dream” in which you perceive the waking reality as it is (or at least some aspects of it), yet somehow still quasi objectively, “through the veil of dreams,” or a level 1 experience when something literally comes out of the body - even less of that when I poop, I have to say. The second type of real OBE is surely a matter of arousal.
A matter of bioplasm, that is a temporaly vehicle of consciousness apparantly not designed for long distance travelling. Instead when I’m in this body am sort of restricted to move in either body, but not really paralized. But I’m totally blind in the conventional sense of seeing, and not able to perceive my surroundings more than a bunch of faint impressions, by having a general knowledge where things are. Also, this plasm will be sucked back within seconds after separation through a cable like organ that seems to be connected on the solar plexus regio of the dream body. I wouldn’t feel it unless I try to figure out, by groping around with my dream hands, what the hell is going on, pulling me backwards.
At first, the pull concentrates around the abdominal area as a honey like substance. Also, this is the state where I would feel my body as bunch of vessel like structures. Then sometimes there is a strong pull at the left side of the solar plexus. If I got a good grasp on the bioplasm body and force separation I may have the feeling that my solar plexus is being pulled out, and very rarely, even pain. Sometimes the separation has two grade, at first it’s hard to move then I suddenly fall forward, out of the grasp of the pull and get my sight. With distance the pull becomes exponentially lesser reactive and forms the cable. Sometimes the cable shits upwars by distance or time. Vision will turn on when it reaches the height of the upper chest on the dream body. At this point, if still exist, the cable is not real anymore and I’m supposedly already passed through S2 sleep (marked by cable position at the middle of the chest) and entered REM sleep. In nutshell, this is the phenomenology of an idealized bioplasm separation.
As far as I know, bioplasm is the only thing that really separates from the body as long as we stick to the ordinary concept of space. Our soul or whenever you would like to call it, will not come out of the body at all just because of the simple reason that it was never inside of it.
Xetrov, I think your spinning OBEs are typical level 2 experiences. Have you ever felt this kind of pull I’m talking about? If not take the exact position of your sleeping body in a dream and recreate a mental falling sensation until you pass through the stage of ear popping and pulsing noises. Then try to separate.
If you are still interested, I will continue with more practical hints, scientific description of the bioplasm and the vacuum condensatum, as well as with their possible connections to the arousal continuum and brain states.