Lucid Levels and Axes

[EllyEve]

So, I’ve gleaned that we seem to differentiate between “levels” of lucidity…

Stephen LaBerge quotes Oliver Fox’s degrees of pre-lucidity…

Oliver Fox regarded [the critical faculty] as typically “asleep” in ordinary dreams. He also believed this faculty to be fundamental to the attainment of lucidity. In order to become lucid in a dream, wrote Fox:

… we must arouse the critical faculty which seems to a great extent inoperative in dreams, and here, too, degrees of activity become manifest. Let us suppose, for example, that in my dream I am in a cafe. At a table near mine is a lady who would be very attractive—only, she has four eyes. Here are some illustrations of these degrees of activity of the critical faculty:

[Absent] (1) In the dream it is practically dormant, but on waking I have the feeling that there was something peculiar about this lady. Suddenly, I get it—“Why, of course, she had four eyes!”

[Dormant] (2) In the dream I exhibit mild surprise and say, “How curious that girl has four eyes! It spoils her.” But only in the same way that I might remark, “What a pity she had broken her nose! I wonder how she did it.”

[Subtle] (3) The critical faculty is more awake and the four eyes are regarded as abnormal; but the phenomenon is not fully appreciated. I exclaim, “Good Lord!” and then reassure myself by adding, “There must be a freak show or a circus in the town.” Thus I hover on the brink of realization, but do not quite get there.

[Peak] (4) My critical faculty is now fully awake and refuses to be satisfied by this explanation. I continue my train of thought, “But there never was such a freak! An adult woman with four eyes-- it’s impossible. I am dreaming.”

From the Crossroads website, a broad and basic low-versus-high from that I think most onieronauts ascribe to:

[spoiler]Lucid dreaming ranging from low to high - Its hard to pin down a ‘normal’ lucid dream as they can have many facets and come in bands of awareness from low to high or any shade in the middle. LOW level lucidity could be very much like a normal dream, you might have gained awareness by realising your dreaming but you’re not really focused on much more than following or exploring the dream world around you. Imagine coming off a plane after 10hrs, your jet lagged and you haven’t had enough sleep. Your just taking things in but not really processing them properly, you might enjoy running around or flying but you won’t really question anything too deeply. You just want to have fun or are happy just being lucid, I tend to rush upto dream people and yabba on about “look I’m lucid and your not real etc etc” instead of remembering to do some of the cool things I wanted to do when lucid like visit the Crossroads dream space.

In HIGH level lucids your brain is far more switched on and connected, you have full memory recall and you feel bright and in control. You are fascinated with what you see and can notice far more detail in large complex scenes than you might have done in a low lucid dream. Everything feels far more real than it did in the slightly mentally dulled low level state in fact it may feel more real than normal consciousness. This more real sensation is can only be paralleled in waking life by peak moments such as adrenaline fueled experiences, a car crash, falling or I imagine jumping from a plane. Its that sharpening of the senses, that feeling of being very alive, you might also get this from fearful situations in life, or extreme happiness.[/spoiler]

And a very detailed way which I think sorts these out very nice and neatly, from a YouTuber:

0. Lucid dream themed non-lucid dreams
Minor: The dreamer thinks, “I hope I have a lucid dream tonight” without realizing s/he could do so then and there.
Major: False Lucid Dreams, the dreamer crosses a vague line between taking the extraordinary dream world for granted, and taking personal powers or freedom from consequences for granted. Having dream powers or dream control, without knowledge of this being a dream.
1. Lucidity only lasts a moment
Minor: Lucidity lost through a real awakening
Major: Lucidity lost through a false awakening or dream transition.
2. Lucidity may be prolonged, but realization that it is a dream does not include other aspects of waking reasoning.
Minor: The dreamer brushes off the lucidity as incidentally amusing, but ultimately frivolous. The dreamer may still be subject to the erroneous influence of other dream characters.
Major: Dream characters are more aware of the nature of the dream world than the dreamer is, but the dreamer refuses to consider these facts they offer.

3. Breaking through into “true” lucidity. That is, fully implanting your waking conscious awareness into the dream world.

4. Lucidity AND dream control.

Meanwhile, I’ve had a couple of dreams where I dream of going to sleep, and in that dream have a lucid dream. However, in this lucid dream I only deal with issues presented in the normal dream.
For example, I have a nightmare. I have a false awakening, and then go back into that nightmare, lucid enough to change the nightmare. Or, I have a dream where I kill someone and invite the ghost to visit me in a lucid dream that night within that normal dream. Is it still lucid, if I’m not connected with true waking awareness?

Is this a false lucid? Meta-lucid? Layer 1.5?

Does anyone else have any Level systems (or, opinion on having a level system: like, “It’s too complicated, can’t we just dream and have fun?” ) or dreams that somehow seem to be neither here nor there, but lucid?

Edit to add: from this thread

@dreamosis

In my distinctions (…) I’m quoting from Ed Kellogg, PhD., a dream researcher connected to the IASD.

Kellogg uses the distinctions pre-lucid, sub-lucid, semi-lucid, lucid, fully lucid and super lucid. For him, pre-lucid means that you’re questioning the dream environment but questioning never leads to awareness of it being a dream. Sub-lucid, to him, means that you’re aware that you’re dreaming, but you don’t act on the information. You just go with the flow of the dream. Semi-lucid means that you make at least one choice based on your awareness, but once you begin continuously actively making choices, you might as well call yourself lucid.

[Wild_Night]

Level 1: (Not lucid) a normal dream
Level 2: (Partially Lucid) I realize that I am dreaming but it’s nothing special, but things are still very dull, and I don’t focous on what I want to do. I also am not doing anything to take control of the dream. These LDs usually don’t last long either.
Level 4: (Half way there) I know that I am dreaming. I have a plan, but am struggling to do what I want. I can see clearly.
Level 3: (Completely lucid) I am completely aware that I am dreaming. I have full control over everything. It is just as vivid as if I am looking through my waking eyes. I also have all 5 senses.

I guess it’s kind of complicated.

[Magic_Qwan]

cool, and oh, you mixed 3 and 4…

[Vampirism45]

I believe that there actually is no lucidity level in a dream (besides non-lucid and lucid of-course). If I look back at my LD experiences, all of them have the exact same level of lucidity, never higher, never lower. I believe that these scales simply put limits on us that prevent us from reaching full lucidity.

[Shadow_Dreamer]

I believe you had a FLD.
Try not to mix up your numbers next time Wild Night.

[Spider]

I agree with the evil kitteh (vampirism).
I had a proper LD today (after 10 years) and it was top awareness and full control LD.
I never had doubted,and still don’t, that i will loose control or something. and so i didn’t.

[EllyEve]

Quit picking on him. Wild Night’s number-mixing prompted me to do a reality check.

Personally, when I look back-- on LD’s I had even before I heard the idea that there were levels-- some are longer, clearer, more successful with dream control, and others not so much even though I’m still lucid. To attempt to neatly sort out these aspects, I find that far from being limiting, can clarify which aspects of a dream to be wary of (for example, derailing DC’s) for which level to aspire to.

Far from the possibly discouraging, “You’re just lucid or non-lucid” if someone dreams about having a lucid dream without becoming lucid, and that’s included – Layer 0 on the Jones scale-- that could be taken as an sign that “You’re getting there.”